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Author Topic: Sig Pistols. Opinions?  (Read 4024 times)
Neocode
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« Reply #15 on: December 14, 2011, 12:12:15 PM »

Thanks everyone.  We're going to the range tomorrow at lunch.  One of the guys has a newer FN pistol of some type as well so it should be a fun lunch break.

A five seven?  Those are fun.  You'll like that too.

My best gun buddy has one of those.  Seems awfully bulky to me... not such a fan.

Yeah it's definitely full size, but it's meant for combat.  I don't think it's any worse than an M9, and I'd much rather have the penetration of the 5.7 round over the 9mm.  I just think it's a fun round.

No denying the penetration is better, I've got a Beretta, and I find the grip more comfortable than I did the 5.7's.  Personal opinion only, of course.  Smiley
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Greenhorn
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« Reply #16 on: December 18, 2011, 07:40:49 PM »

You'd be better off with a Glock 9mm just for cost of parts, capacity, and ubiquity compared to a Sig or HK.
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« Reply #17 on: December 19, 2011, 04:36:41 AM »

Well, I got to shoot both the Sig and FN.  They're both fine pistols and in my less than professional hands fun to shoot.  I did find that I need to get my ass back to the range more often.

I'm not downing Glocks and plan on buying another one eventually.  The Sig is mainly because I like the way they look and shoot, same with the FN that I shot.  I know that I could get more bang for my buck with something else but I'm looking to splurge a little.
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« Reply #18 on: December 19, 2011, 05:18:23 AM »

Went over to the parents house on sunday to shoot the boom sticks. Dad has a sig P239 in .40cal that he uses for his concealed carry gun. I got to shoot it and must say it's a sweet heart. shoots straight, feels right in my hand. the only thing I didn't like is it doesn't have a safety. If a round is in the chamber its ready to rock and roll.
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« Reply #19 on: December 19, 2011, 01:39:29 PM »

Went over to the parents house on sunday to shoot the boom sticks. Dad has a sig P239 in .40cal that he uses for his concealed carry gun. I got to shoot it and must say it's a sweet heart. shoots straight, feels right in my hand. the only thing I didn't like is it doesn't have a safety. If a round is in the chamber its ready to rock and roll.
Glocks are the same way. Many S&W M&Ps also come that way. I specifically got my M&P45 with one because I am old fashioned, but it pops off very easy with my draw technique. Then again one should always keep the booger hook off the bang switch until ready to make holes.
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C4isfun21
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« Reply #20 on: December 19, 2011, 02:20:52 PM »

Quote
Then again one should always keep the booger hook off the bang switch until ready to make holes.

This has now replaced my previous verbage for weapons safety rule #3.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2011, 02:23:08 PM by C4isfun21 » Logged

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Shell Games
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« Reply #21 on: December 19, 2011, 02:35:47 PM »

Thanks everyone.  We're going to the range tomorrow at lunch.  One of the guys has a newer FN pistol of some type as well so it should be a fun lunch break.

A five seven?  Those are fun.  You'll like that too.

My best gun buddy has one of those.  Seems awfully bulky to me... not such a fan.

Yeah it's definitely full size, but it's meant for combat.  I don't think it's any worse than an M9, and I'd much rather have the penetration of the 5.7 round over the 9mm.  I just think it's a fun round.

No denying the penetration is better, I've got a Beretta, and I find the grip more comfortable than I did the 5.7's.  Personal opinion only, of course.  Smiley

I guess that would depend on the definition of "better". I'd personally prefer the superior ability of the 9mm to penetrate intermediate barriers. It also has pretty much ideal penetration in flesh (tends to stop just short of exiting the target) as opposed to the over penetration of the 5.7. Modern/standard defensive loads (9mm, .40, .45) have been tweaked to near perfection in regards to their penetration in the human body.

The 9mm also offers far better terminal performance (more crushed/damaged tissue in the wound profile)... But I digress as we're talking penetration.

If you're thinking body armor...

I was under the impression that only certain (now unavailable to the public) rounds in 5.7 rounds would defeat soft armor... Which would make them the same as 9mm AP rounds in this regard no?

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« Reply #22 on: December 19, 2011, 05:18:41 PM »

I find striker fired pistols about a million times easier to run, but Sig had a smart guy somewhere in their past who understood how to make a comfortable grip.

I wouldn't buy a Sig made in the last few years, though. They're not what they used to be.

The old Sigs were-and still are-well made guns, especially the ones marked "West Germany". The current crop...I don't want one.

I was hired with three other guys and we were the last group to each be issued a "hand me down" W. German P226 in .40 S&W.  Every new officer since has been issued a brand new Sig P226R.  Mine runs like a champ despite already putting several thousand rounds through it in addition to however many came before.  We haven't had many problems with the new ones yet, but it's not reassuring that we already have despite their relatively young age and low round counts. 

I love the way my Sig feels and shoots.  If the W. German one were cheaper, I'd buy one.  Since they're not, I would also probably buy a striker-fired pistol if the wife ever lets me.Grin  Given the recent problems Sig has had, particularly with the P250, I don't know that I would buy a "new" Sig.
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« Reply #23 on: December 20, 2011, 10:54:08 AM »

Thanks everyone.  We're going to the range tomorrow at lunch.  One of the guys has a newer FN pistol of some type as well so it should be a fun lunch break.

A five seven?  Those are fun.  You'll like that too.

My best gun buddy has one of those.  Seems awfully bulky to me... not such a fan.

Yeah it's definitely full size, but it's meant for combat.  I don't think it's any worse than an M9, and I'd much rather have the penetration of the 5.7 round over the 9mm.  I just think it's a fun round.

No denying the penetration is better, I've got a Beretta, and I find the grip more comfortable than I did the 5.7's.  Personal opinion only, of course.  Smiley

I guess that would depend on the definition of "better". I'd personally prefer the superior ability of the 9mm to penetrate intermediate barriers. It also has pretty much ideal penetration in flesh (tends to stop just short of exiting the target) as opposed to the over penetration of the 5.7. Modern/standard defensive loads (9mm, .40, .45) have been tweaked to near perfection in regards to their penetration in the human body.

The 9mm also offers far better terminal performance (more crushed/damaged tissue in the wound profile)... But I digress as we're talking penetration.

If you're thinking body armor...

I was under the impression that only certain (now unavailable to the public) rounds in 5.7 rounds would defeat soft armor... Which would make them the same as 9mm AP rounds in this regard no?



I don't remember where I got the information at this point, but it was my understanding that with the higher velocity of the 5.7 round there was better penetration than 9mm.  Granted, the 9mm has more mass, and therefore bigger holes.  I agree with you that there is a particular round that is designed for armor penetration, as opposed to the standard round. 

As for the 9mm tending to stop within the body, vs. the 5.7 passing through, I can't speak from experience, however, in my head at least, two bleeding holes are better than one, as that means the target will bleed out faster.  Of course, realizing you are still responsible for where that bullet ends up after passing through your target.  Not what I would consider an ideal home defense pistol.
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« Reply #24 on: December 20, 2011, 01:55:23 PM »

Thanks everyone.  We're going to the range tomorrow at lunch.  One of the guys has a newer FN pistol of some type as well so it should be a fun lunch break.

A five seven?  Those are fun.  You'll like that too.

My best gun buddy has one of those.  Seems awfully bulky to me... not such a fan.

Yeah it's definitely full size, but it's meant for combat.  I don't think it's any worse than an M9, and I'd much rather have the penetration of the 5.7 round over the 9mm.  I just think it's a fun round.

No denying the penetration is better, I've got a Beretta, and I find the grip more comfortable than I did the 5.7's.  Personal opinion only, of course.  Smiley

I guess that would depend on the definition of "better". I'd personally prefer the superior ability of the 9mm to penetrate intermediate barriers. It also has pretty much ideal penetration in flesh (tends to stop just short of exiting the target) as opposed to the over penetration of the 5.7. Modern/standard defensive loads (9mm, .40, .45) have been tweaked to near perfection in regards to their penetration in the human body.

The 9mm also offers far better terminal performance (more crushed/damaged tissue in the wound profile)... But I digress as we're talking penetration.

If you're thinking body armor...

I was under the impression that only certain (now unavailable to the public) rounds in 5.7 rounds would defeat soft armor... Which would make them the same as 9mm AP rounds in this regard no?



I don't remember where I got the information at this point, but it was my understanding that with the higher velocity of the 5.7 round there was better penetration than 9mm.  Granted, the 9mm has more mass, and therefore bigger holes.  I agree with you that there is a particular round that is designed for armor penetration, as opposed to the standard round. 

As for the 9mm tending to stop within the body, vs. the 5.7 passing through, I can't speak from experience, however, in my head at least, two bleeding holes are better than one, as that means the target will bleed out faster.  Of course, realizing you are still responsible for where that bullet ends up after passing through your target.  Not what I would consider an ideal home defense pistol.

Again, it depends on what criteria you're using.

The increased mass and momentum of the 9mm means it has superior performance through intermediate barriers. As far as the "two holes" theory... If we weren't talking about a much larger hole (quality 9mm JHP v 5.7) going through the target and stopping just before exit... Than the extra hole in the back to speed up bleed out might be a legitimate point (although, internal bleeding can often be just as bad)... But I'd still feel the perfect amount of penetration would be getting stopped by the skin on the backside of the target.

I'm just not a fan of the 5.7 based on the testing I've seen/read. I seen no practical role for it given the other choices available. But to each their own YMMV and all that.

At the risk of offending some (I know some think posting info to well respected sources (The authority as far as I'm concerned) is somehow second hand trash that doesn't deserve the weight of their firsthand anecdotes (even when they're along the lines of "300 flawless rounds. WOOHOO! This thing's unstoppable!" or "well, you wouldn't believe what this thing does to watermelons! It's gotta be a one-shot-stop-beast-mode-killing-machine!"). But...

http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19913 

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« Reply #25 on: December 20, 2011, 02:40:14 PM »

Shell Games, I'm never offended (okay, mostly never) when someone links to other's anecdotal evidence. Like I have said other places around here, enough anecdotes do add up to real data.

I had written up a response on this thread earlier but the InfernalNet ate it. Roughly I said that basically I don't really care what you are using to make holes in bad guys, as long as they are in the right spot. The right spot is what stops them, not waving a weapon as magic talisman.

This goes to having good stress training from a qualified source as a personal requirement not only for CCW but also home defense. Plinking/target shooting are really good for maintaining familiarity with your weapons but performing the follow on drills you learn at a good class with a trusted shooting partner are really the keys to being what I see as "ready." No one is really ready until they have actually used their skills to deter or stop a bad guy in real life - this includes me and any other InfernalNet pundit your run across. My opinion, YMMV.

That said, I feel really blessed to have places I can actually practice shoot and scoot skills against a timer as opposed to just a regular limited range experience. The ability to draw from concealment and hit under stress are an important part of the CCW experience. The same applies to dealing with an intruder in day or night conditions for home defense. Shoot/no shoot scenarios and such should be worked out in advance. How does your ammo penetrate and what barriers between the round exiting a body and your surroundings exist? Okay, I'll stop bloviating here.
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« Reply #26 on: December 20, 2011, 02:51:39 PM »

Thanks everyone.  We're going to the range tomorrow at lunch.  One of the guys has a newer FN pistol of some type as well so it should be a fun lunch break.

A five seven?  Those are fun.  You'll like that too.

My best gun buddy has one of those.  Seems awfully bulky to me... not such a fan.

Yeah it's definitely full size, but it's meant for combat.  I don't think it's any worse than an M9, and I'd much rather have the penetration of the 5.7 round over the 9mm.  I just think it's a fun round.

No denying the penetration is better, I've got a Beretta, and I find the grip more comfortable than I did the 5.7's.  Personal opinion only, of course.  Smiley

I guess that would depend on the definition of "better". I'd personally prefer the superior ability of the 9mm to penetrate intermediate barriers. It also has pretty much ideal penetration in flesh (tends to stop just short of exiting the target) as opposed to the over penetration of the 5.7. Modern/standard defensive loads (9mm, .40, .45) have been tweaked to near perfection in regards to their penetration in the human body.

The 9mm also offers far better terminal performance (more crushed/damaged tissue in the wound profile)... But I digress as we're talking penetration.

If you're thinking body armor...

I was under the impression that only certain (now unavailable to the public) rounds in 5.7 rounds would defeat soft armor... Which would make them the same as 9mm AP rounds in this regard no?



Yes, I was referring to a combat environment and penetrating IIIA armor.  That's what the round was designed to do and was specifically tested to replace the 9mm for better penetration.  It actually performs pretty well in terms of limiting over penetration as the round is so light, it doesn't retain it's high energy for very long, especially once it's penetrated.  You are correct that none of the three rds offered to the public are rated for AP.  I wasn't really endorsing it for civilian personal protection, hence my saying it is just a fun round.

If you want penetration through intermediate barriers with a 9mm, you really need to go with FMJ (and I still don't have a lot of faith in that from seeing it fail in combat), but FMJ would go against better judgement for personal protection carry.  So I think 9mm isn't quite that much "better" for intermediate penetration if you look at it from a personal carry standpoint.  But as you said, to each his own and all that.

If you're looking at apples to apples no-barrier terminal performance, then yes I whole heartedly agree with you about the 9mm, which is exactly why all but one of my handguns is chambered for 9mm.  The five-seven platform is just a fun toy for the civilian shooter
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« Reply #27 on: December 20, 2011, 07:04:57 PM »

as far as 2 bleeding holes are better then one it all depends as the FBI found out in Miami in 1986

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs7.htm

multiple 9 mm hits on the bad guys left them able to return fire and kill 2 FBI agents and wound 5 more before it was all said and done.
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« Reply #28 on: December 20, 2011, 10:49:07 PM »

as far as 2 bleeding holes are better then one it all depends as the FBI found out in Miami in 1986

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs7.htm

multiple 9 mm hits on the bad guys left them able to return fire and kill 2 FBI agents and wound 5 more before it was all said and done.

I posted an angry rambling rant of a reply to this post, but then decided that it was a bit abrasive and I could probably repost it in the morning when I've had more than a few hours sleep in the last few days.  I'll rephrase in the morning.
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« Reply #29 on: January 03, 2012, 04:16:40 PM »

Ok, well to get back on track, I have a 229 and as 40's go it shoots great the weight of the tool really handles the round well, it shoots like a dream and I have no doubt that it will for a 45. As far as the purchase it was a cop trade in and I got a great package deal but looking back at it now with the prices of the mag's I would go with a glock. If money is not an issue by all means go with the Sig. I do not know your shooting ability, but for a new shooter they should be mindful of the traditional double action it takes a bit to get over. My opinion and everybody's got one.
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